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Page(s) for deletion: Viola (Veronaville)
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This page has been a controversial one for some time. As a quick breakdown of the situation, a reference to a character file for a sim named Viola was found in the files for 111 Stratford Street, a Veronaville lot. This fact was, to my understanding, then connected to a pre-release image taken on that lot, which shows Olivia and Mercutio Monty talking to another sim who does not appear in the final game. The Monty family seen in the screenshot have similarly numbered character files to the number formerly used by Viola. Her name has also been mentioned as potentially notable, as it appears both in Shakespeare's Twelfth Night and the default pool of random townie names.
The page was originally nominated for merging with Seth Bui, a repair person who has taken the character file slot once occupied by "Viola", based on the precedent set by a similar case where Nancy Philippine took the slot of a sim named "Gary". After looking at Seth Bui's page and seeing that quite a bit of information regarding Viola is already there, I am instead nominating this page for deletion.
I've already outlined some of my points in the first and (currently) last topics on Viola's talk page. In order to avoid repeating myself a third time, I will mostly copy the second set of arguments I made there. That said, I've touched up my last few points.
- The connection between the "Viola" mentioned in the lot data and the sim seen in the pre-release screenshots is lacking, in my opinion. The logic given for the connection is that the screenshots were taken on 111 Stratford Street, the same lot where her data is found. However, Olivia and Mercutio Monty are also seen in this screenshot, but have no references in the lot data (in fact, several members of the Capp family appear, despite not being in the screenshot.) Additionally, in my own brief testing of played lots in my personal, custom neighborhood, I found no connection between sims living on a lot and sims mentioned in the lot data. The only sims mentioned in that lot's data were, in fact, random townies. This makes it difficult to take this screenshot as a hard connection between the name in the lot data and the sim in the pictures.
- The idea that Viola was connected to the Monty family in any way relies mainly on the fact that Seth Bui's character file is numbered similarly to the Monty family seen in the screenshot. It's been said that the "only" way this could happen is if a family member was deleted after the family was finalized, but this is not the case. It's also possible for a sim deleted in CAS to cause a "skip" like this, creating an empty slot which could be filled if the SCID was reset or not yet implemented (one of which seems to have been the case, based on Bottom Summerdream's wildly mismatched Instance & UserID.)
- This theory also seems like begging the question to me, since the idea that the ID is grouped there because it was Viola's relies on one to assume that a distinct Monty family member was deleted, and that this family member was Viola. It's equally possible that, for example, Mercutio & Romeo were created, and then Mercutio's face was rerolled with genetics and his original self was deleted. There seems to be an equal amount of evidence to support either theory. We just can't be sure, and I argue that we need to be sure in order for it to have a non-fanon page on this wiki.
- The fact that "Viola" is a name in the random pool used by townies is difficult to ignore, especially when paired with the fact that there are many other sims in other lots' data that follow the pattern of "random townie name, replaced by another random townie" as I've detailed in the first topic of the talk page. If Viola were to be a removed member of the Monty family, this would make her the sole outlier to this pattern.
- While it is true that Viola is a character in Shakespeare's Twelfth Night, the name is still very common today, much like Olivia, Toby, or Andrew. Overall, I don't think this fact supports either argument more than the other.
- Aside from the lack of solid evidence for the subject of the page having existed, the page as it stands now is also a mess. Every section has at least one call for citations or confirmations, and the page seems to be arguing with itself in several places. Looking at the page's edit history only shows it getting worse over time.
I also want to add that my stance isn't necessarily that Viola wasn't a real sim at some point, but that we don't have enough evidence to say for sure that she was. Welark (talk) 01:28, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
I disagree if she is a townie she would not appear with Monty members even in simpe where hamelet is or Seth bui are in places they don’t belong and townies in neighborhoods are randomly named but we have the townie pool same townies if she was a townie then why delete a townie 174.239.120.181 (talk) 18:21, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Weak delete I wanted to start this deletion discussion for quite some time now, but thanks for doing so. Anyway, Viola's page should be deleted. But long story short, I support going forward with the deletion of the Viola page. PhysicalMediaHound Talk
I agree that, on a technical level, yes, this page should be deleted as Seth Bui's page already elaborates on the technical level of Viola's deletion. However, I think Viola has become such a beloved figure in lore discussion, that I think the more speculative angle around Viola as a potential character should instead be moved over to, say, a Fanon: Viola Monty page. This means anyone looking for the more technical angle, of how she's a deleted Sim of unknown origin, can go to Seth's page, meanwhile anyone speculating on the idea she was a Monty and how she could have "faked her death" or any other commonly given lore reasons for her disappearance, can just go to her Fanon page. This would clean up the mess around her page as it is now, simply because all this speculation won't be treated as FACT, so it wouldn't NEED citations anyway, being treated as purely speculative as it truly is. I just think it'd be a bit sad if the fanon lore aspect got wiped off the wiki, given that she's become something akin to the Sims fandom's Rin Satsuki (a scrapped Touhou Project character). The Boobfather Talk
- Delete I'll skip over how this article looks from a technical perspective (i.e. when I look at it from time to time, it looks massively different every time), although this results from another, more serious problem, related to why I'm voting to delete the article. We know absolutely nothing about this Viola, and creating an article about a fan theory doesn't make sense, especially when it concerns a character who was never finally added to the game, so she can't be considered canon. I agree with all the arguments given by the original author of this discussion. The article itself seems to have only come about because a certain YouTuber came up with this theory in a video describing the technical side of Veronaville, but I think it caused a bit of confusion among players to combine the information from the lot file with the pre-release screenshots from the game, because it doesn't have to be connected (by the way, you really did make a great point that even though Olivia and Mercutio are in those screenshots, they don't appear to be mentioned in the lot file at all, which highlights how this theory of Viola being a member of their family makes no sense), and they also failed to mention many other lot files mention Sims' names with files overwritten by those officially living in the neighborhood, in whose articles it's briefly included, so I've been thinking for some time that Viola shouldn't be such a special exception to have a separate article, since this information could easily be transferred to the Seth Bui article. Even a small acknowledgment of this Sim's potential existence by producer Jonathan Knight not only doesn't help make it notable enough to warrant an article, but doesn't even confirm what this character was actually supposed to be. Danionek03 (talk) 18:28, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
Strong disagree: After doing some research on deleted Sims from Veronaville, I feel like it would be a bad idea to just outright delete the article — it's possible to recover quite a lot of unlinked relationships (by resetting the Sim Creation Index and creating dummy Sim Description files to fill out the missing instances), which show that there might've not been just one deleted Monty, but two:
- Claudio Monty (0x3A, 58, User00016)
- Olivia Monty (0x3B, 59, User00017)
- -missing- (Viola) (0x3C, 60, User00018)
- Romeo Monty (0x3D, 61, User00019)
- Mercutio Monty (0x3E, 62, User00020)
- -missing- (0x3F, 63, User00021)
- Regan Capp (0x40, 64, User00022) (and so on)
- With dummy files, it's possible to see who the unlinked relationships pointed at, and despite that neither Sim 60 nor 63 have any outgoing relationships (as these might've been removed with their deletion), other Sims have relationship data with them (relationship types as viewed in SimPE, with SREL instances):
- -missing- (Viola) (0x3C, 60)
- Antonio Monty > Aunt or uncle (0/0, family, 0x0036003C)
- Beatrice Monty > Cousin (0/0, family, 0x0038003C)
- Benedick Monty > Cousin (0/0, family, 0x0039003C)
- Claudio Monty > Unset or unknown (0/0, no flags, 0x003A003C)
- Cornwall Capp > Unset or unknown (0/0, no flags, 0x0041003C)
- Hamlet Dane > Aunt or uncle (0/0, family, 0x0035003C)
- Hermia Capp > Unset or unknown (80/50, acquaintances, family, crush, 0x0043003C), note how Hermia knows only this Sim, not the second one
- Holofernes Dottore > Grandparent (0/0, family, 0x00E5003C)
- Isabella Monty > Grandparent (0/0, family, 0x0034003C)
- Judith Dottore > Grandparent (0/0, family, 0x00E4003C)
- Juliette Capp > Unset or unknown (29/29, no flags, 0x0043003C), similarly to Hermia
- Mercutio Monty > Unset or unknown (0/0, no flags, 0x003E003C)
- Oberon Summerdream > Unset or unknown (0/0, no flags, 0x00AD003C)
- Olivia Monty > Unset or unknown (0/0, no flags, 0x003B003C)
- Patrizio Monty > Grandparent (0/0, family, 0x0033003C)
- Puck Summerdream > Unset or unknown (50/60, acquaintances, friendship, family, 0x004D003C)
- Regan Capp > Unset or unknown (0/0, no flags, 0x0040003C)
- Romeo Monty > Unset or unknown (0/0, no flags, 0x003D003C)
- Titania Summerdream > Unset or unknown (50/30, acquaintances, friendship, family, 0x004C003C)
- Tybalt Capp > Unset or unknown (53/33, no flags, 0x0046003C), similarly to Juliette and Hermia
- -missing- (0x3F, 63)
- Antonio Monty > Aunt or uncle (0/0, family, 0x0036003F)
- Beatrice Monty > Cousin (0/0, family, 0x0038003F)
- Benedick Monty > Cousin (0/0, family, 0x0039003F)
- Claudio Monty > Unset or unknown (0/0, no flags, 0x003A003F)
- Cornwall Capp > Unset or unknown (0/0, no flags, 0x0041003F)
- Hamlet Dane > Aunt or uncle (0/0, family, 0x0035003F)
- Holofernes Dottore > Grandparent (0/0, family, 0x00E5003F)
- Isabella Monty > Grandparent (0/0, family, 0x0034003F)
- Judith Dottore > Grandparent (0/0, family, 0x00E4003F)
- Mercutio Monty > Unset or unknown (0/0, no flags, 0x003E003F)
- Oberon Summerdream > Unset or unknown (45/35, acquaintances, family, 0x00AD003F)
- Olivia Monty > Unset or unknown (0/0, no flags, 0x003B003F)
- Patrizio Monty > Grandparent (0/0, family, 0x0033003F)
- Puck Summerdream > Unset or unknown (65/35, acquaintances, friendship, family, 0x004D003F)
- Regan Capp > Unset or unknown (0/0, no flags, 0x0040003F)
- Romeo Monty > Unset or unknown (0/0, no flags, 0x003D003F)
- Titania Summerdream > Unset or unknown (33/35, acquaintances, family, 0x004C003F)
(checked it a few times but might've missed something)
- (Although the second Sim has relationships with the Summerdreams, these can be Bottom's as she's the only one who has no relationship with this Sim, Summerdreams also recognize a lot of Sims as their family (mostly all Capps and Montys in fact), but the game doesn't show the family icon in-game for Sims with "Unset or unknown" relationship type.)
- For the existence of the second Monty, there's this tiny bit of evidence that might suggest that it's in fact the case:
- If you zoom in, you can see a bottle in the kitchen, which would indicate that the fourth child of Claudio and Olivia would've most likely been a baby or a toddler, which matches with Olivia's family aspiration, especially that she was most likely meant to be playable early on as she was pregnant when she was killed off.
- Another piece of evidence is the lot itself, while some pre-made lots lack fridges or some tiny bits of furniture, 111 Stratford Street has no furniture at all, not even the furniture shown in the beta screenshot, which would suggest that Montys lived there before moving into Patrizio and Isabella. One interesting thing is that there's a bedroom on the ground floor with pink walls and a pink 3x1 carpet (most likely placed under the bed), which might've belonged to Viola prior to her deletion.
- Though since there is a strong support for the deletion of Viola's article for good, I feel like the best option would be to just create a new article for all deleted Sims, akin to Venomander's List of deleted TS2 Sims (where each Sim would get their own section with all the info and evidence for their existence), and merge Viola's article into it. It'd hopefully be a fair compromise between keeping and deleting this article. Jaceu (talk) 17:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed with the above! I was also suggesting a compromise for similar reasons, I still think making a fanon page—which, those DO exist on this wiki, which is why I don't see Viola Monty being non-canon as contradicting the argument for a fanon page—for Viola Monty, the beloved fanon character, while including all the technical details on Seth Bui's page, and/or making a list of deleted Sims with a section for her, as the user above suggested. The Boobfather Talk