Talk: Viola (Veronaville)

Nomination for Merge

This page is mostly speculation with little evidence to back it up, and in my opinion reads more like a fan theory than a factual wiki article. Having looked inside the lot file myself, I don't believe there's enough evidence for the claims this article makes. I also believe Viola was most likely a randomly generated townie rather than a playable sim. I'll break down my reasoning and findings here:

• The first paragraph starts out fine, but then moves into speculation that she is related to the Monty family, and continues to refer to her as the sister of Romeo & Mercutio for the rest of the article. The only evidence that it gives for this theory is a pair of pre-release screenshots showing "an unknown teenager" talking to some members of the Monty family on the same lot where her name is found, 111 Stratford Street. I couldn't find any actual evidence that this teenager is Viola, nor could I find any references to Monty family members in the lot's data.

• The next two paragraphs both present themselves as speculation, while also presenting several things as fact without backing them up. For example, it says that "both the names, Olivia and Viola, are references to Twelfth Night" but does not support its claim that "Viola" is an intentional reference rather than a coincidental random name. Most Veronaville playables' names are references, but the article doesn't provide any evidence that she was intended to be playable.

• After this, the article says that the image in the infobox isn't even official, and was made by a player generating a face based on the facial features of "her parents". Again, it has not provided any solid evidence of who Viola's parents were, or if she even had any. It has simply asserted that her parents are Olivia & Claudio, again with no evidence.

The "Datamined information" section is mostly accurate, and notes that "Viola" is found in the game's default names list in Live.package. I verified this myself, "Viola" can be found at line 155 of the female first names list. It also notes that the sim may have been a randomly generated townie, which I believe to be the most likely scenario based on my own research.

Namely, a lot more of these references can be found in the file for 1 Tesla Court, where the Beaker family lives. All of the names found on this lot are either playable sims with matching character file numbers, or names that are in Live.package and were overwritten by townies/service NPCs. My list of these sims is below. For reference, Viola would be written as "Viola (18, Seth Bui)"

John (114, Gary Walton), Zeeshan (110, Cooper Olshfski), Kenneth (53, Esther Tse), Kana (52, Daryl Gregory), Elle (51, Shelby Zaidi), Vasyl (34, Blair Enriquez), Jill (62, Jill Smith), Johnny (60, Johnny Smith), Pollination Tech#9 (58, Pollination Tech#9 Smith), Buck (Buck Grunt), Ripp (13, Ripp Grunt), G? Buzz (General Buzz Grunt)

As I said above, these are all names found in the game's random names list in Live.package, who have been overwritten by townies or service sims. I believe that these were randomly generated sims who were deleted and overwritten, and that Viola, whose name is also in Live.package and was overwritten by a service sim, was one of these cases.

There is also another of these cases in Veronaville, with a sim named "Gary". His ID of 106 now belongs to Nancy Philippine, and Gary is mentioned as a note on her article. He is called "Gary_o" on that page, which is a misunderstanding of the data; this reference to the character file should say "Gary_objt", but has been garbled by something the text editor can't read, which pushes the "bjt" forwards in the text.

I also want to note that from looking at my own played lots, I can tell that the sims are not always residents. One of my lots in a custom neighborhood has references to two random townies, neither of which have been playable at any point, nor do they have any strong connections to the current resident (the only sim that's ever lived on that lot) or each other.

For these reasons, I believe that Viola is not noteworthy enough for a page of her own, and should be merged into a note on Seth Bui's page, as has been done with "Gary" being a note on Nancy Philippine's page. - Welark (talk) 01:42, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to second merging with Seth Bui. From what I've seen/know about her, there is very little justification for Viola getting her own page when her whole existence is five characters hidden in a text file and the rest is speculation (that, notably, keeps on getting removed and added). - Oliviahihigh (talk) 05:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I also agree. I don't know how I didn't see this comment before, thanks for putting the {{merge}} template, Oliviahihigh! I do believe Viola's info should have the same approach as Gary in Nancy Philippine's article, as we know the same amount of information about Viola as we do about Gary. I actually was the one who added the message below the image in the infobox. I am reluctant to delete so much information at once, so I have limited myself to putting in templates like {{fact}}, because there is not a single source for all this information. But hey, who knows? Maybe there IS evidence for all this, but the people who discovered it refuse to reveal it (read with an ironic tone). –p6tgel (? · talk) 07:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I was the one who originally nominated this for merge, then later went back on it. Since then I've thought about it some more, and I think I've changed my mind again. There just isn't enough evidence to warrant an entire, canonical wiki page, and I do now support the merge again. I will also say that this talk page is a bit of a mess (a lot of new topics have been created when they should have just been replies like this one) and it would be nice to have a proper, formal poll on the subject, if possible. Welark (talk) 20:39, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Update

I've updated this post to provide more details on why she is believed to be more than just a townie. Unlike all the names you've listed, Seth's file (User00018) appears to match genetics with the teenage girl from the photo and his genes also match those of Claudio and Olivia. Also, this teenage girl appears to share some facial features with the sim believed to be Olivia, indicating a familial relationship. User00018 also follows immediately after Claudio and Olivia, but before Romeo and Mercutio. Admittedly, The speculation headshot needs to be updated as more information about her original appearance has been uncovered thanks to a better-quality image surfacing.

If there are any more questions, please do ask and I'll try my best to answer them. - Carrit (talk) 11:25, 13 February 2024 (EDT)

The headshot has been updated. While still speculative, the nose mouth and chin are more accurate to the pre-release image. - Carrit (talk) 12:51, 14 February 2024 (EDT)

I'm not trying to take this too seriously, but I feel like there's more evidence than Viola just being a townie.

While the name Viola can be the name of a randomly generated townie, it's a little too convenient to be a coincidence, given the other evidence stated above and the fact that it is a name from Twelfth Night.

It should also be mentioned that the developers of Veronaville have made many internal changes to the sims data before release, such as the aforementioned changes to Romeo and Mercutio and also the reparation of Cordelia's corruption. This means instead of deleting her original file, the developers may have decided to go into her file and replace her data with that of Seth Bui's instead of deleting her original file. (For the sake of reference, it should be noted that the developers replaced the data of Bianca Monty's original file with that of Hamlet Dane Jr. instead of deleting her file.)

It is to be noted that the file, N008_User00018, immediately follows after Claudio (User00016) and Olivia (User00017) and it is known that originally Romeo and Mercutio used to share facial features with their parents before being changed in the final game. This means they were created using the "make a baby" feature, and User00018 follows first after the parents, and Romeo (User00019) and Mercutio (User00020) follow after this file. An NPC or townie sim would never randomly generate while a family is being created in CAS, but it's possible if a sim were initially created and then deleted, freeing up the user file to be obtained later, but it's known that a sim named Viola used to inhabit this file.

Also, I believe instead of generating an NPC and creating a new character file, they made User00018 into an NPC manually. Anyhow, I've gone a little overboard with the editing on this page. My apologies. If it's really necessary to merge with Seth Bui then so be it, but I think it's more significant than that. - Carrit (talk) 1:37, 14 February 2024 (EDT)

Facts about Viola

When I originally added the tidbit of information about Viola in the Seth Bui article I thought it was a fun bit of information and speculation to share based on what I found in the lot data.

The fact is that we have no information about Viola and everything mentioned in this article is pure speculation. There is zero evidence to link her to the beta screenshot. If you want to argue her relation to the Montys based on the file name order and how other families follow a similar pattern then sure -- at least there is some logic to that.

There is also no evidence whatsoever that Viola's data exists in Seth Bui's file. It just doesn't make sense for there to be any. Unlike Hamlet Dane's file (I also originally added that info) which actually contains Bianca's description and whose character file would line with the Monty's creation, Seth Bui is purely generated from the game's code. There is no mention of Viola in Seth's file and it doesn't contain any data that shouldn't be there.

Here's something you can easily check for yourself: If you line up all of the Veronaville characters by instance number in Simpe you can see that all the NPC's line up nicely: 3 maids, 3 handymen etc. This is EXACTLY what you would expect when you generate NPCs in any neighbourhood. It means they were all created together by the game at the same time. The fact that Seth Bui is User00018 is entirely incidental because the game filled in an empty file name slot. Why would Maxis manually edit Viola's file to inject a random NPC when the game's code does that automatically? That theory doesn't make sense. We can speculate why they did that with some other specific sims but at least the evidence for tampering is in the data. I know we want Viola to exist in some form more than just a text string in the lot data but this isn't it. Any genetics that Seth Bui might share with the fan Viola portrait or the beta screenshot is entirely coincidental and not based on anything in the game data.

Aside from that, Carrit, I really appreciate the effort you put into Viola and your channel is amazing. You brought her to life and that's great that people can talk about her. I just don't want to mislead people into thinking she exists in the game like Bella Goth in Pleasantview. Some data that might unravel the mysteries surrounding 111 Stratford and the sims that might have lived there is the remnant furniture data. I think I was able to piece together a girl's room and a lonely chair in the tower section.

this is the same as strabgtown npc at the top of the intatace. 173.26.112.222 (talk) 15:58, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

The comment above (edit: *two comments above; it seems like the author of the first one forgot their signature) sums up the bit about Seth's DNA matching pretty well. It's three 1/4 chances, definitely not impossible. DNA is also deleted when a sim is cut down through the game's normal deletion process, so it wouldn't be inherited like relationships are. Interests, personality, and aspiration are also overwritten.

As for the name, I think it's worth mentioning that Twelfth Night's Viola isn't ever called Viola until the very end of the play, not even by herself. She's in disguise as "Cesario" for most of it, and is referred to by that name. I feel like they wouldn't pick this name for a playable sim, although that's just a hunch on my part. (Twelfth Night is one of my favorites)

As for Seth, if they had made him intentionally, why would they use names from the random pool and not another Shakespeare character? Why would they not do this for other characters?

ID-wise, a lot of evidence suggests that the sim creation index was reset at some point. For example, Bottom Summerdream's character file ID is 122, but her SDSC instance is only 31. 31 should have been reserved a long time before 122 was taken, which means Bottom probably was created after the original 31 was deleted and the index was reset. This would also result in randomly generated sims taking these now-free numbers. This can also be seen in the lot file for 19 Chorus Court, which has an "Albany", whose ID is now Grim Reaper, and "M?nda" (Miranda Capp, probably) whose ID now matches Bottom Summerdream, among other playable names that no longer line up. Seth Bui also has the images of Bud the Repo-man in his files, as all game-generated repairsims do. (Even new ones!)

I do feel the same way about Viola as the comment above. I think Viola is a very neat character, and I love all the fan art and theories that have been made. But, she's not a sim who exists in the game anymore. She has no data in the final game besides that one name in the lot file. I will also add that I don't believe there was any intention of misleading anyone here. I assume good faith, as always :)

Incidentally, the names of all of Albany Capp's family (besides Desdemona) do appear in the data for 111 Stratford, with matching IDs. If you're looking at the lot's past, that might interest you. Welark (talk) 17:35, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Odd coincidence

A few points I want to mention without going overboard, as I did previously. I know I said some of these before, but I'll try to be more factual and not get carried away again.

1. Seth's file User00018 falls in-between Romeo and Mercutio and their parents, Claudio and Olivia.

2. His genetics for hair color and skin line-up with the mysterious teenage girl.

3. The old User00018 is named Viola, whose name comes up later in Twelfth Night, but it's still a character in one of Shakespeare's works regardless.

4. Seth's light blue eyes would match up with the father, Claudio.

5. Lastly, if we look closely at the higher-quality image, it seems like the girl and Olivia at least share a nose. It's easier to notice this if you're very familiar with the original Maxis premade and CAS faces. (Sure, this is more speculative given we can't see her face very well and it's partially obscured, but it's something worth acknowledging.)

Also, we don't know what went on during development, so what doesn't make sense to us in the final release version of the game could've made sense back then. Honestly, who can say exactly what occurred unless we were there?

All I'm trying to get at is that I find it all a little too convenient to simply be a coincidence. Too much lines up in certain aspects.

I hope I didn't come off in a negative light in any way. I get a little carried away with speculations and theories sometimes. lol

It's also important to mention that I'm not the only one who's worked on this page, and I'm not even the one that made the discovery in the first place. Please be sure to also give credit to the others where it's due. :)

- Carrit (talk) 2:24, 15 February 2024 (EDT)

First off, don't worry, you didn't come off negatively at all. :) If anything, I think I came across more hostile than I meant to in the first message here.

I hadn't noticed the character files being in that order, since their description instances are relatively far apart. That is interesting, and definitely changes things for me.

For #3, I was thinking at the time that it would have been an obscure name to pick compared to other playables, but on second thought, Viola is the protagonist of Twelfth Night, and her real name is Viola, even if she isn't called that for most of it.

The nose looks pretty similar to one of the face templates. (I'm pretty sure it's Ara I'm thinking of.) That said, Olivia looks pretty similar to it as well, and the jaw/mouth does look similar to Claudio's.

I'm still not fully convinced that the skin/eyes/hair were taken from Viola, based on how sim data & the deletion process are structured, but overall I do agree that it's a bit coincidental. The article itself, I'm a bit on the fence about at this point. I feel like this information is notable enough to have a place on the wiki, but it is still speculation, even if it's decently supported.

I think placing a template at the top of the page to clarify that it's more speculative than most articles is a good solution. I'm not sure if one exists yet.

- Welark (talk) 14:54, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

111 Stratford Street

Maybe this is addressed already above and I read past it (if so, my apologies), but doesn't the architectural layout of the lot itself support this claim? The house has a master bedroom (for Claudio and Olivia?) and two bedrooms decorated as if they are for their sons (Romeo and Mercutio?) upstairs, and one bedroom that appears to be decorated for a daughter (Viola?) downstairs. Of course, assuming there already is a consensus that the family lived on this lot. Khaemwaset (talk) 15:28, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

The house is definitely big enough to fit a family of five, that’s soon to become a family of six. The space is a bit tight but not unmanageable. We know for a fact that 111 Stratford Street was intended to be the home of Claudio and Olivia Monty along with their three teenage children and a fourth child on the way. The family, including Viola are referenced as being residents of the home within the lot’s package files and the they are also shown to reside there in prerelease screenshots. A similar case also exists for Antonio Monty. Instead of starting off in the family bin, Antonio, his very much alive wife Hero, and their twin children were intended to reside at 267 Avon Avenue. This is confirmed by leftover data that can be found within the files of The Sims: Life Storirs.

Shortly before release the Monty side of Veronaville underwent a number of changes that largely depopulated it. Playable Sims Claudio, Olivia, and Hero Monty were all killed off, Romeo and Mercutio were moved into their grandparents’ home, a now widowed Antonio and his twin children were placed into the Family Bin, and Viola Monty, the eldest child of Claudio and Olivia had her file overwritten by that of a service NPC. The now deceased sims also had their memories erased, in Olivia’s case this included her pregnancy token which resulted in her being perpetually pregnant in the final game. Overall the evidence is overwhelming enough to state that it’s an established fact that 111 Stratford Street was meant to be the home of Claudio, Olivia, and their four children. thelamppost 10:25, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

It definitely seems that way based on the beta images and the old object data. At the moment, I can confirm that the bedroom in the tower section had a single bed and posters that you would find in a teen room but I haven't placed the rest of the available objects in the house yet. In the beta images there's a baby bottle suggesting that Oliva's pregnancy came to term but unfortunately no high chair or crib in the lot data to show this baby/toddler had a place in the house. Unfortunately, it looks like the developers had moved in Goneril's family possibly twice, once at N005 development and then more recently at N003 when they last play tested for 3 Sim days. This makes it difficult to know which objects belonged to the Montys or Capps. Pentawa (talk) 13:38, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

The objects indicating her pregnacy came to term is so interesting! Like many I always assumed otherwise, because of her pregnancy mesh still being present. Khaemwaset (talk) 17:55, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Rename Page to Viola Monty

Despite her character file being overwritten by an NPC prior to release we’ve now collected enough leftover data to confirm her identity as Claudio and Olivia’s firstborn child, she was 32 even to Tybalt of the Capp Family. Viola’s existence as Claudio and Olivia’s excised firstborn is now quite well established. As the teen daughter of Claudio and Olivia it’s safe to say that her full name is Viola Monty.thelamppost 11:04, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I do have to agree that the likelihood of Viola not being a Monty is extremely low. Although I'm confused on what "she was 32 even to Tybalt of the Capp Family." means? I've made my stance on the theory of her equivalence to Tybalt (I don't buy it at all), but where does 32 come in? I’m K.P.! Toss me a message if you need help! 12:38, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Whoops! The Tybalt thing was a weird typo that I missed. What I intended to say is that like Tybalt she was the firstborn and had two younger siblings of the other sex. From what little we know I don’t at all believe that her character was intended to fill a role similar to Tybalt. Anyway the fact that her file number places her creation directly between Olivia and Romeo shows that she was created in CAS as part of Claudio’s family. With all of the info that’s been pieced together over the years, her status as Claudio and Olivia’s eldest child is essentially confirmed.thelamppost 16:09, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Lack of references/copious speculation

It could be argued that Viola herself is the creation of speculation, however, her existence (while not proven) is supported by evidence. What irks me is how much that simply isn't proven. Her infobox states "unknown toddler" as a sibling, as well as unborn baby Monty. The likelihood of both unborn baby Monty and this mysterious toddler existing at the same time is extremely low. Olivia likely isn't even pregnant in the screenshot. While this likely disproves my theory of unborn baby Monty replacing Viola, keep in mind the fact that there's a bottle on the floor could just as likely mean there was a baby on the lot, and not a toddler. The relationship data also just... appeared out of nowhere? I can't find any evidence of her getting along with Tybalt (which seems out of character for him, but it was a beta), and a girl liking another girl in 2004 is bold, not a decision I think Maxis would've tried, despite the inherit gay-friendly coding of The Sims 2. Also, I don't quite understand where the idea that she was the eldest came from? It doesn't add up to me. The claim that she's "Tybalt's equivalent" holds no water, besides the fact that she's a girl. She seems to resemble Hermia more, based on her relationships and Mercutio's role being far more similar to Tybalt's than Hermia's. I just think the article is too speculative, although I'd like to hear about evidence I may have missed. I’m K.P.! Toss me a message if you need help! 12:08, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

With everything we know, it’s safe to say that Viola Monty is a real character whose file was overwritten late in production. Unfortunately given that she’s a mysterious “lost” character she’s a bigger magnet for people to fill her page with falsities and nonsense. At this point in time it’s beyond the point of conjecture to state that Viola Monty is the daughter of Claudio and Olivia who was removed when the decision was made to kill off Claudio and Olivia. It seems like this page is a big target for people to add baseless garbage. The page is in need of a major cleanup. I think the best solution going forward is for the page to be watched more closely to see what edits have been made so false information can be scrubbed immediately.thelamppost 16:28, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

In regards to Unknown Toddler and Unborn Baby Monty, I think I came to the same conclusion as Carrit, in that these would have been two distinct Sims. The existence of Unknown Toddler is based on the baby bottle from the beta image of 111 Stratford and the fact that there was a deleted Sim that was created after Romeo & Mercutio (User00021 & Instance# 3F). Similar to Viola, there is still Sim Relations data for this User21-Instance#3F Sim (Patrizio & Isabella are the grandparents etc.). Because of the presence of this Sim data, it means that Olivia must have come to full term and this is why the beta image supports that this was the youngest of the Monty clan. Whether Unknown Toddler was an infant or toddler, I can't say but it's easier to make the distinction from Unborn Baby. Unborn Baby Monty only refers Olivia's pregnant mesh. Since she didn't come to full term with this mesh baby, the game never created its Sim data so we can't say much about it. There also exists the possibility that Toddler and Unborn Baby were intended to be one in the same Sim. It's possible that the developer of Veronaville, Jonathan Knight, intended for there to only be 4 Monty children so he deleted Unknown Toddler and impregnated Olivia again. In regards to Viola, you can find information about where the relationship data came from in the notes on Viola's page. It comes from a deleted Sim that was created after Claudio and Olivia but before Romeo and Mercutio (which is why she is considered the eldest). This deleted Sim would have had been User00018 - Instance# 3C. The remnant Sim Relations data supports that this was the child of Claudio and Olivia, like is mentioned on the page & notes. Unfortunately, Viola’s relationship data has been deleted but other Sim’s relationship data in regards to her is mostly intact. I don’t think I was able to make that very clear on the page just because of how the relationship panel works on the wiki. So, for instance, it is Hermia who has the crush on Viola and not necessarily the other way around. Hermia’s crush also gave me pause because I wouldn’t expect that relationship from Maxis either. Before I stumbled across Viola from the lot data, I thought that the deleted Sim was beta-faced Mercutio, but then the Tybalt relationship wouldn’t make sense either. However, Hermia’s crush makes sense if you take Shakespeare’s The Twelfth Night into consideration. In that story Viola’s character also has a female character in love with her (albeit she mistakenly thinks Viola is her brother Sebastian). I really can’t speak to Viola being Tybalt’s equivalent. I sort of doubt it because we know that Tybalt was originally Goneril’s first born child before being moved to Consort’s household—though this happened pretty early in development because he’s not present in the screenshots of Beta-Goneril’s household on 80 Bard in the Prima Guide. Hope that cleared things up a bit. Pentawa (talk) 20:57, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

20 years have gone by and this game is still revealing secrets. Your post cleared up some confusion for me but also added more questions, especially in regards to this “Unknown Toddler”. For one, Olivia’s bio implies that Unborn Baby Monty is going to be a new addition to a family wihh a large number of children. I’m really curious to know if Claudio and Olivia were intended to have five children instead of four. I guess there’s also a possibility that they deleted the original youngest Monty child and decided to have Olivia start off pregnant instead. Still a separate character makes more sense and really helps explain Olivia’s bio. I’d love to see more information recovered from the game both solid and conjectural. Like who are these deleted premade sims? What remnants are left of them and where to look for it? Keep the site updated on your finds. This is some cool stuff.

It’s frustrating and a bit sad what they did to Veronaville prior to release, and it only gets worse the more that’s uncovered. They killed off several major playable characters such as Contessa, Hero, Claudio, Olivia, and their would be 4th (5th?) child. They overwrote Olivia Monty’s file and potentially deleted another sibling entirely. Then to top it all off they moved Antonio, Goneril, and possibly Regan out of their homes and into the Family Bin. The released version of Veronaville feels like a bland ghost town. Last thing but Tybalt being created as Goneril’s instead of Cordelia’s makes a lot of sense looking back. The angry, antagonistic Tybalt featured in the play was actually Juliet(te)’s cousin not brother, perhaps even more notable is that he takes after Goneril’s “unfortunate” appearance. HehThelamppost (talk) 05:57, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Relationships and how to access code

I'm aware of the lack of information out there on Viola, and looking through the edit history and this discussion page I've been able to see that the few people who have contributed differ in opinion sometimes. I believe it would be easier to check the information that is added (such as relationships) if it could be easily accessed.

So I wanted to ask how to access her information. Is it just in SimPE, in Seth Bui's information? Or is it in a separate place? (I don't have much knowledge about SimPE). Or, for example, where does File:Viola Monty Script.jpg come from? I know it comes from the code for 111 Stratford Street, but how do you access it? (See edit below)

Also, I wanted to ask about "Unknown Baby/Toddler", which leads to Blair Jayapalan. Where does this information come from? It doesn't say anything on either Viola's or Blair's page. If they're unknown... how do we know they're Blair?

How do real family relationships differ from those that are simple flags? I mean, there are a lot of Sims who have family flags with other Sims but aren't considered family in the game itself. This is an example from the Vidcund Curious page: Vidcund's relationship data also contains inexplicable family relations to Bella Goth, Crystal Vu, General Buzz Grunt, Loki Beaker, Circe Beaker and Nervous Subject.

It seems strange to me (not negatively) that Viola -a woman- had a crush on Hermia -another woman- around the time The Sims 2 came out. –p6tgel (? · talk) 06:10, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Edit: I now know how to access N003_Lot45.package. I still don't get where all the personality, interests and relationships data came from. Both the personality and interests are the exact same as Seth Bui's. Did this all come from the Lot45 file? Is there a way to encode all the "ßž~à2S±�"¢�àÂõ£" nonsense? –p6tgel (? · talk) 12:20, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Since this page is being considered for merging with Seth Bui again, it may not be the worst idea, as while we do have some strong evidence of Viola's existence, the truth of the matter is that we have no solid confirmation from the developers from TS2 or otherwise. talk) 4:02, 21 June 2024 (EDT)

Merge Discussion - Consolidated Edition

There's been a lot of back and forth about whether to merge this page with Seth Bui or not, and the talk page has gotten pretty messy, so I'm creating this topic to try and properly track the votes and arguments for each option.

When replying, please do not use the "Add Topic" button at the top of the page. This makes it very hard to follow the discussion. Please also make sure to sign your comments by putting ~~~~ after your message, to make it clear who is saying what. I suggest using Edit Source to see how the replies to the first topic were formatted as an example of how to add them to this topic.

Personally, I think the evidence for this page is lacking. My comments in the top post on this page still mostly stand, but to go over a few of my core points again:

• The connection between the "Viola" mentioned in the lot data and the sim seen in the prerelease screenshots is lacking, in my opinion. The logic given for the connection is that the screenshots were taken on 111 Stratford Street, the same lot where her data is found. However, Olivia and Mercutio Monty are also seen in this screenshot, but have no references in the lot data (in fact, several members of the Capp family appear, despite not being in the screenshot.) Additionally, in my own brief testing of played lots in my personal, custom neighborhood, I found no connection between sims living on a lot and sims mentioned in the lot data. The only sims mentioned in that lot's data were, in fact, random townies. This makes it difficult to take this screenshot as a hard connection between the name in the lot data and the sim in the pictures.

• The idea that Viola was connected to the Monty family in any way relies mainly on the fact that Seth Bui's character file is numbered similarly to the Monty family seen in the screenshot. It's been said that the "only" way this could happen is if a family member was deleted after the family was finalized, but this is not the case. It's also possible for a sim deleted in CAS to cause a "skip" like this, creating an empty slot which could be filled if the SCID was reset or not yet implemented (one of which seems to have been the case, based on Bottom Summerdream's wildly mismatched Instance & UserID.)
  • This theory also seems like begging the question to me, since the idea that the ID is grouped there because it was Viola's relies on one to assume that a distinct Monty family member was deleted, and that this family member was Viola. It's equally possible that, for example, Mercutio & Romeo were created, and then Mercutio's face was rerolled with genetics and his original self was deleted. There seems to be an equal amount of evidence to support either theory. We just can't be sure, and I argue that we need to be sure in order for it to have a non-fanon page on this wiki.

• The fact that "Viola" is a name in the random pool used by townies is difficult to ignore, especially when paired with the fact that there are many other sims in other lots' data that follow the pattern of "random townie name, replaced by another random townie" as I've detailed above in the first topic. If Viola were to be a removed member of the Monty family, this would make her the sole outlier to this pattern.

For these reasons, I feel there is not enough evidence to warrant a canonical page on the wiki, and that it should be merged with Seth Bui's page in the same way that "Gary" is mentioned on Nancy Philippine's page.

I don't have much to add other than that I agree with the above comment and would like to cast my vote for merging Viola's page with Seth Bui's. Maybe she deserves her own fanon page, but certainly not an official one. There just isn't enough evidence that she existed and was a member of the Monty family at all. - Sarah3680

Since it appears to be cut content, maybe it should go there? So it doesn't distract from an actual cannon article nor take up a cannon article on it's own, and all speculation can be discussed on the talk page.  Hollowness | Wall | Contr 21:13, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

My issue with adding it to the cut content page is that I don't think there's enough evidence that there even was any content to cut in the first place. Only a very small bit of this sim remains, aside from possibly-unrelated things being linked backwards to her, and there wouldn't be much to add. That said, Seth's page already seems to have references to Viola, so it may actually be better to nominate this page for deletion rather than merge. Welark (talk) 00:50, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree on deleting the page, and I don't think adding her to the cut content page is adecuate for the same reason Welark opposes. Some time ago I agreed on merging this page with Seth Bui's, but mentioning Viola on his page seems enough to me (as it is currently). I also agree that Viola is more of a fanon character, and she is considered as one for many fans in social media such as Tumblr. Anyhow, that's just "fandom history" in a way, and not something that should be on the wiki. –p6tgel (? · talk) 19:35, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

There is now a proper discussion for deletion, it might be good to add your thoughts there as well :) Welark (talk) 19:57, 30 June 2024 (UTC)