Please excuse me if I bring this topic up at a completely random time, but this topic has to be discussed.
It appears that, just recently, there has been a couple of requests placed in for users to become a Chat moderator, which is great and all because Chat can always use new chat moderators as it does appear to be growing more active recently, but I believe, among with a fair few users, that the voting rules seem to be flawed. By this, I mean they are outdated and should be updated as they need to be more stricter and stronger.
This is why I am formally proposing for the Requests for Chat Moderator rights page to be closed until this discussion has come to a conclusion and until there is a new voting ruleset in placement. There is a strong reason as to why I believe that the voting rules are flawed; please allow me to emphasise this below.
It seems that some users support nominees due to a strong level of friendship, or on a more personal level, something similar discussed in this thread. This leads me to either think that the user supporting the vote hasn't really thought their support through and doesn't give a good voice of support or the user supporting just supports because they wish for their friend to receive the Chat moderator rights. Now, I understand that some users want their friends to go far on the wiki, you know I mean, they want them to become known wiki-wide or whatever, but it's still not a good reason to vote for them just because of your friendship with that user.
Please discuss this below and feel free to propose any changes to the voting system for Requests for Chat Moderator, whether you use Chat or not, it's up to you. Thank you. Beds (parlare - da leggere) 18:43, September 8, 2013 (UTC)
Why not go the route we did with RfA and RfB and ditch the voting system in favour of a more discussion-based system which allows for 5 days of discussion (with a 1 week voting period should the discussion give no consensus)? We can adapt the system if need be to make it more suitable with how the community sees chatmod requests.
I know this proposal is specifically about Chat but if the community wants to go whatever route we choose with this with IRC chanop requests too for the sake of consistency then I'm for it. Obviously our options are open at this point so I'll keep watch of this thread to see if anything interesting pops up. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 19:50, September 8, 2013 (UTC)
- In my opinion, it's fine the way it is. Chat only really needs a simple yes/no voting system for moderators. I also find it silly to close the requests when new requirements for becoming a chat mod were introduced not too long ago. I just don't think anything needs to change. The only problem with people requesting is that they're not always clear on what the requirements for being a chat mod are. Other than that, everything's fine the way it is. ColinThePanda meow 19:53, September 8, 2013 (UTC)
- In the case of re-structuring RfA and RfB, it was obvious to pretty much everyone that the system had to be revamped, and that a shutdown of the requests pages was necessary. In the case of RfCM, I haven't seen any evidence that a restructure is really necessary, so I hesitate to suggest that the requests page should be closed. Regarding Lab's suggestion of implementing a system similar to how we conduct RfA/RfB, I'm not sure we need as much of an elaborate system for Chat Moderators. If there really is an issue with applicants or the rules being too lenient (I am not convinced that they are, either), then that's something that can be corrected without adopting a totally different procedure, since CM applications don't need as much scrutiny as an administrator application.
- So, all in all, I am opposed to closing Chat Mod requests, unless I can be convinced that a reform of RfCM is needed. I have not been convinced of this so far. -- LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 23:27, September 8, 2013 (UTC)
- Look, to be honest, I was going out on a whim here about this whole proposal and I knew there would be some controversy about it, but there is some flaws with the voting system, so I personally think we should switch to a more discussion-based system, like Lost Lab suggested. It could make requests more easy to control, rather than having a voting system. The voting system used currently is just a simple support/neutral/oppose and a mild reason as to why, however, if the discussion system was implemented it would be in a more controlled themed environment and those who are just voting because one of their friends or whatever happens to be the nominee, they would have to give a more elaborate statement.
- And just to clarify, I only requested RfCM to be closed for requests until the discussion was over. After that, the requests would easily be reopened again. Beds (parlare - da leggere) 09:41, September 9, 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think that Chat Moderator requests need the same system as admin requests. Imo they just aren't really as big of a deal, and I think the system that's being used right now is fine. However, I didn't really see an argument for why to change the system besides just being used due to people voting for their friends (which would happen regardless of which system is used, honestly). If this forum is really for discussing issues with the Chat Moderator requests page, then I don't see why the argument is for whether to close Chat Moderator requests or not. For now, I believe the requests page should be left open and this forum should be given a direction. --Bleeh(talk!) (edits) 22:19, September 9, 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to speak up here based on personal experience when it comes to dealing with RfCM requests. In the past, there have been a fair few requests that I have dealt with that have been all over the place and where it was difficult to determine consensus, meaning I've had to look at strength of argument and such to see if they add up. This is remarkably similar to the issues we had with RfA prior to the revamp and I blame this on the fact that RfCM uses the exact same system RfA once used.
This is why I feel revamping RfCM would be a good thing, because it would mitigate numerous issues. Going for something similar to RfA/B, even if we adapt it slightly to make it seem less "complex", seems to be our best solution here, unless somebody has another idea.
However, to everyone claiming that using this system would be too complex, I don't remember anybody complaining about the voting system being exactly the same as RfA back when I proposed the idea of RfCM and RfIRCOp earlier this year. What exactly has changed since then that has suddenly made using the same, if not a similar, system to RfA/B too complex for Chat Moderator requests that was a non-issue back in January?
This is just my argument for the proposal and some food for thought, seeing as a few users clearly feel like this thread is going nowhere. Let the discussion commence. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 23:14, September 9, 2013 (UTC)
Alright, so it seems that some users are not convinced on the whole proposal and don't have an understanding as to why Chat Mod requests should be closed so I would like to go into a more detailed description on why I proposed the proposal and some other reasons that I haven't said yet.
Firstly, I'd like to go into a couple of rules that I think should be added, whenever the revamp takes place or whatnot. The first rule I'd like to go into is not completely focused on voting but more focused on requests itself. I feel it would be best if there was a time separation after a request. For example, not long after Hurshbr's request; 35 minutes to be precise (my math may be a little bit off...) another user requested for Chat Mod rights. Now, there is not a problem with any user requesting for any kind of rights here on the wiki, but another request after the previous request was just closed around 30-35 minutes ago is, in my opinion, quite a pain as users now have to go through the same process again which can be frustrating for others, especially when the requester does not meet all of the requirements, whether it be the requester having bad grammar and spelling and English skills, or if they are not active enough or even if they cause disruptions now and again.
Another rule I'd like to go into is more focused on voting/giving an opinion on a requester. I've already said this twice in the thread but I'd like to bring it up again. Some users tend to usually vote/voice their opinion on a request due to a high personal on-wiki friendship with the applicant. Now, I think this is unfair on the applicant themselves; their on-wiki friends are letting them down as they are ruining their chances of becoming a Chat Mod; I understand that they want their friends to obtain the rights, but why not give a thoughtful and explainable reason instead of only writing a few words and not even taking the slightest consideration about the request and the requester?
Now, the reason I proposed this proposal in the first place is because I felt that Chat Mod requests voting is quite corrupted and it should be scraped and switched to a completely different system. I also proposed Chat Moderator requests to be closed until the end of this thread. That way, it can stop other users from applying for Chat Mod rights until we could come to a conclusion on the matter.
Ultimately, the decision to lock Chat Moderator requests (even temporarily) has to depend on whether there is a substantial movement towards changing Chat Moderator requests. If multiple people think a change to the system is needed, then it is best to lock the requests until those changes can be made. However, the responses above have been mixed as to whether a change should be made. In the spirit of addressing the issue (if one does exist), I would like to start a brief vote on the subject.
- Question: Do you think there is a need to update the Chat Moderator requests process?
Since any full-scale reform of CM requests would entail a temporary lockdown of the page, voting 'yes' to the question above would also essentially indicate support for that lockdown. We'll let this vote run for a few days and see the response. -- LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 17:09, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
Please vote below
Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 20:27, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
Beds (parlare - da leggere) 18:59, September 15, 2013 (UTC)
LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 23:07, September 15, 2013 (UTC)
Bleeh(talk!) (edits) 00:22, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
DanPin • talk • contribs 17:43, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
Based on the responses received, the conclusion drawn is that the issue should be discussed, even if that decision wasn't reached unanimously. Thus, Chat Moderator requests will be closed, until the resolution of a discussion focused on restructuring.
Since this thread specifically seeks only to close the requests (and doesn't seek to also discuss the changes being sought), it has run its course and will be archived. A new thread, focusing on the actual discussion, will be started shortly. -- LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 01:54, September 19, 2013 (UTC)