Forum:Discussing notability and establishing a notability policy

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Hi,

Branching from this deletion nomination, I seriously think we need to discuss what content related to The Sims series constitutes as notable enough to feature on The Sims Wiki and establish a formal notability policy as we literally don't have one at all.

I can say from the offset that these things are obvious enough that not deeming them as notable is detrimental to the purpose of the wiki:

• Games, expansions and stuff packs (e.g. The Sims 3, The Sims 3: Pets, The Sims 3: Town Life Stuff)
• Worlds/neighborhoods (e.g. Pleasantview, Riverview, Old Town)
• Canon Sims and families (e.g. Bella Goth, Cycl0n3 Sw0rd, Tara DeBateau, Goth family)
• Objects (e.g. Television, Decorations)
• General Simology (e.g. Life Stages, Traits, basically the whole of the Simology tab on the navigation bar)
• Lots (e.g. 1 Free Street, Cemetery, Rabbit hole)
• Basically anything major that I may have missed which is in-game
• Notable real life figures related to the series (e.g. Will Wright, Electronic Arts, Maxis)

I may have missed some off but you can see it's a no-brainer to deem the major things as notable.

The real point of discussion comes at the existence of related content which is outside of the series, such as YouTube accounts, fan sites, people and mainly The Sims community, and whether or not we should cover them, which is what the deletion nomination of TheQuxxn brings up.

I do have an opinion on this but to maintain neutrality, I'll keep it to myself for now. Before we consider establishing this as a policy, I would like that this is discussed so that when we do get to that stage we have something to work around.

I'd like to emphasise that this is a very important discussion as it brings a fair bit of the content on this wiki into consideration and I would very much appreciate maximum community input where possible. I look forward to the development of this discussion. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 12:38, December 21, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

Most of the content you've listed above is, obviously, relevant. I think that real-world articles can have their place here, but there needs to be some criteria establishing what is and is not relevant, as well as what constitutes notability. There's a few big things this should probably include:

• Pages created about real-world content would need to be written in a neutral point of view. The purpose of the article needs to be to inform readers, not to advertise.
• Persons associated with the real-world content being written about should refrain from editing those articles or starting the articles.
• Including a page about real-world content is not an endorsement of the content or its creator.
• If it can be argued or questioned whether a particular piece of real-world content is not notable, there needs to be some citation of the content's notability. This could include Quantcast or other internet traffic measurements, number of download hits on a modification, number of page views, etc. Basically, if something is not obviously notable (like ModTheSims, which virtually everyone within the community has heard of), there needs to be some objective proof of its notability or the article will be deleted. Custom content/modifications creators should be noted if they are responsible for multiple notable pieces of cc/mods, or are otherwise very notable within the community.
• Real-world content must be related to The Sims series of games. For instance:
  • A fan website's main focus should be on The Sims games.
  • Game modifications and custom content should be for The Sims games.
  • Fan media creators (YouTubers, bloggers, etc) should focus primarily or significantly on The Sims games.

Note: I'm using the term "real-world content" to collectively refer to custom content, modifications, fan websites, custom content creators, and "fan media" creators. Some or all of these types of content could be allowed or prohibited based on discussion.

What I've listed above isn't perfect, but I think it's a start. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 17:06, December 21, 2012 (UTC)

LiR proposes a sound policy. However, I myself am not too concerned about policy itself, and I am in support of having real-world content and creator pages. Perhaps we should make a new namespace for the said contents to separate it from the canon materials and those that are directly related in development? MILK FOR THE UNYUUFEX, FLAT CHEST FOR THE CUTENESS THRONE, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL PROBES (user talk:Mathetesalexandrou) 22:02, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

I like this idea. If the wiki decides to go forward with it, I think it may be useful to have some sort of criteria, or a page that people can ask to create a page on a particular person (like nominations for a battle or adminship requests), so that we don't get accounts of people that nobody has heard of. However, if this isn't a good idea, maybe the users could just ask a bureaucrat instead. Meh. Overall, I think this is a great policy and that it would only affect the wiki for the better. ~ Waikikamukow (Anyone wanna chat?) 22:45, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

I like the policy, but it's the case of the articles involved with the Sims, but it's outside the actual series. Surely articles based on famous YouTube users would be/are on Wikitubia (which covers most YouTube-related people and groups)? I also think, to prevent a whole wave of various unknown players, I'd go with Waikikamukow's idea of the voting page. I think this policy clearly outlines what content the wiki should have. I'm in support of it. AsherÉire I'm a lonely person, so please talk to me... 23:09, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

I'm a little cautious about the idea of this new policy. Mostly about how the community will react to the new pages and content coming in. However, your argument is a good one and this sound like it could help the wiki community in some ways. You have my support but the policy should be revised by an admin or bureaucrat to help it gain some stability. Freedomtalk 00:05, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

I like all the ideas that Freedom, LiR, and Math put up, and I think this page should stay. If it has a separate category, then maybe it would be easier to differentiate and not provoke argument about it. But it was stated that it might be deleted due to not being relevant to anything specific on the wiki, but then doesn't that technically discourage users from creating Fanon? Technically Fanon isn't relevant to the wiki either, so that proposes a problem. But it's obvious that this discussion is about real world content, so maybe adding a category like [[Category:Real-World Content]] would be helpful when dealing with these types of pages...? PGR7 ^{(parler - entendre)} 00:29, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Categorization might help. There has to be some way to determine whether the real-world contents (e.g. fan sites) are relevant and notable enough for their own article, like what makes them distinct from others. Personally, I'm opposed to the creation of fan (person) pages that people don't take account of. It's rather difficult to get the neutral point-of-view without being too subjective for a real-world person/fan article, unless they're unique from somebody else. They need to have evident reasons why a fan should have a page of its own. Nikel _{Talk – Vote!} 04:16, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

I've seen some good ideas here, mainly the ones regarding caterogising it and maybe making a separate namespace. Here is my 10 cents - notability is a hard thing to define, what is notable to me may be very different to what is notable to someone else. I'm sort of on the fence here, but I am leaning to some sort of system where maybe every article is assessed on a case-by-case basis. While I've never watched any of Quxxn's videos, or that of any other sims-based youtuber for that matter, I would say that she would be considered as a notable figure within the sims fandom, ergo I think we should keep the article. I suppose due to this it is kinda logical that we restore that one on Curtis Paradis that was binned a while ago as well.

tl;dr version - categorise the fan made stuff, maybe make a namespace for it (wikis can have up to 3 custom namespaces irc, and we've only got 2 - fanon and tutorial), and make it so that each article is reviewed on a case by case basis. ―ฬђ ^talk 05:16, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

I think if there is going to be pages about simmers, They need their permission, I have a E-mail adress and I know TheQuxxn's which is: emailquxxn@gmail.com.  I agree with Lab and the rest of the comments made above.I like WH Idea, we could make a new mainspace and it is reviewed on a case by case basis. We could also make a rule about creating page's about YouTuber's like only users with an account can edit the page (Protect it against New and unregistered users). 🌹Deathbee1000 07:43, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

We don't need their permission to make a page on them, and I don't really want to bother people with e-mails if we don't need to, not to mention some people barely check them (i.e. me) ―ฬђ ^talk 09:39, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with LiR, too. Plus, it's a good idea to make a namespace for the real-world content related to The Sims series in any way. And I agree with what Wogan said, if needed to make a page for e.g. a Youtube-user who posts TS-related videos and is notable for that, it's not necessary to have their permission. And when writing articles about real-world content, the article should be objective and neutral, not to be a place for somebody to speak his mind about a specific matter (that's why we have the Forums). We'd need more votes, but I think that this is a really important matter to discuss about. There should be a policy related to this, too.

OMG, forgot to sign, my bad.... Nikola (Let's talk) 14:11, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

I see a lot of mentions of a new namespace... my concern is what I'll call 'creep' - where we create a namespace, for instance Real-world (so Real-world:Name of article) and say that real-world content gets added to that namespace. So this would catch pages about YouTubers and other well-known simmers, Sims series websites, and popular modifications. But you could argue that an article like The Sims 2 (or about any game or EP) is itself about a real-world thing, and should be placed in this new namespace as well. The point I'm trying to make is, this stuff is all relevant to The Sims Wiki, so it should be within the main namespace. I'd support the categorization and review of real-world articles, but I don't see a whole lot of positive coming out of a new namespace.

On the subject of review... I think it's important we specify what kind of reviewing we're doing. For starters, would it be reviewed by admins-only, or could any user assist in reviewing? Would it take more than one user/admin to review something? Would it be a passive review process or an active review process?

A passive review would allow a user to create an article about real-world content and the article would remain unless it was flagged, in which case it would be reviewed (under whatever process is established based on the other questions above). Under active review, each new article would need to be checked by the pre-determined person(s) immediately after the article is created, or perhaps before the article is allowed to be added in whole.

If I think of more to chime in with, I will do so -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 23:40, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Seeing as I have managed to get some input on this thread, I'll come out of my hidey hole and formally give my opinion.

If we do choose to host "real-world" articles then I can see an issue popping up with how notable something must be in order to warrant an article. For example, I could upload a video to YouTube and then create an article on myself saying "I make Sim videos, give me an article", which can easily be applied to virtually everyone and their YT channel meaning that unless we formulate some sort of guidelines on this, we'll have an influx of articles that we don't know if they're warranted or not and even then the process isn't entirely satisfactory.

As far as a review process goes, if we were to do this then I'd be more for a passive review process as it eases the workload but has the fatal flaw of virtually everything I mentioned above. To me, an active review process for articles would add more scrutiny to the wiki development process, create a possibly hard-to-manage workload and it undermines the purpose of a wiki: to collaborate in order to develop - having an active review system where someone has to give a green light for something to happen breaks the whole collaborative effort saying that goes around here and it's much easier to help each other bring things up to standard.

To lay my cards on the table regarding a namespace, I'd say it's pointless per LiR's reasoning above. While I'm not sure if we're strictly limited to 3 custom namespaces (for the record, the MediaWiki software actually doesn't have a limit, it's just a few lines added to LocalSettings.php although some extensions, like Forums or the Message Wall, use up namespaces in themselves, which may be why Wikia imposes a limit) but if it's true then I'd rather save namespace #3 for something more useful.

tl;dr? Ultimately, I'll say I'm generally against adding "real-world community" articles, such as YT channels and community figures (this doesn't include Will Wright, Rod Humble etc.), to The Sims Wiki per the issues it may bring up but if it does happen per community consensus then I'm okay with a passive review system and no new namespace. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 16:14, December 24, 2012 (UTC)