The Sims Wiki talk:Policy/Archive 1

Pay sites
What is 'The Sims Wiki's' policy on pay sites? I noticed that TSR is only mentioned on Pay sites. I believe them to be the biggest pay site. In my opinion 'The Sims Wiki' should declare colors and offer a more adult article on paysites. It should explain that selling custom content for real money is not allowed since EA owns ALL rights to anything in this game. I can find the exact part of the EULA which says it and have had an inquire with EA tech support, stating that selling Sims stuff is illegal. Since selling the stuff is illegal, we should have no trouble in linking to MATY's excellent forum where you can find items from paysites for free (let's not link to the official EA created stuff though, double standards, but EA has the law on their side). We are already linking to MATY's main page. If anyone gives trouble they can't legally do anything about it since anything created for the sims is not the property of the creator, it's EA's property. EA owns anything about the game and whenever you start the game you agree that you are only playing with their permission (a permission which includes you agreeing to not selling anything).

I see two options regarding pay sites: 1. Be neutral, like now and secretly avoid linking to them. 2. Condemn pay sites and make it against the rules to link to them. In this scenario 'pay sites' includes anything from monthly subscription, to pay-per-item, to items only available to donators. All items on the site has to be free or it's a pay site.

Why don't EA just sue the pay sites? Well, it's all about politics really. If EA set their mind to it they could have lawyors and a bailiff round to them and shut 'em down faster than no one's business. BUT doing this would cause of case of the big evil corporation vs. the small good creative contributor, EA doesn't want that on their image. Pay sites are essentially motivating creative soles to be abit more creative, since they get payed in return themselves. In the long run: More custom content (from pay sites or not) = More custom content, without EA lifting a finger. Doesn't take a genius to see that that's a sweet deal for EA.

Question: If pay sites were shut down wouldn't that mean less custom content? Answer: In theory yes, but that would be exactly like if you stop illegally copied games, there'd be less copied games. Removing pay sites would only diminish the already illegal part of the game. My reasoning here is informing visitors to our site that what pay sites are doing is against the law and NOT link or mention them, which in return hopefully won't direct any of our readers there. Duskey ( talk )( blog ) 22:07, June 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's the duty of the wiki, or any wiki, to provide facts and information. That being said, I don't think it's fair to favor free sites over pay sites (or vice versa), even if there is a legitimate reason for doing so. In short, I'd rather see links to all the sites or links to none of the sites, but I don't think we have the right to pick and choose, since doing so would be showing support for one side or another, and would diminsish this wiki's credible claim at neutrality; when this wiki loses its neutrality, it can no longer be treated as a factual database. LostInRiverview (talk)(blog) 22:49, June 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Further, it shouldn't be the place of this Wiki to determine what is against the law or against EA's policies; if EA wants to push the issue, they're certainly capable of it. At best I believe we should reference the issue but not claim in either direction as to its legality. Something along the lines of "The concept of Pay Sites may violate the EULA, but EA has yet to press the issue or seek legal action against so-called pay sites." Again, I encourage neutrality. LostInRiverview (talk)(blog) 22:52, June 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Duskey, I disagree with you, and agree with LostInRiverview. This wiki should not "declare colors" or take sides in the paysite/anti-paysite dispute. Being neutral, and being seen as neutral, is good for the credibility of the site. Also, our job here, as I see it, is not to provide legal advice (I don't know about you, but IANAL) or to encourage people to visit or avoid any particular sites or type of sites. Dharden 23:45, June 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia describes disputes. Wikipedia does not engage in disputes. -Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. That being said the article, Pay sites, does not actually describe the controversy it merely states that there is one. --a_morris (talk) 02:36, June 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * I see, you've proven your points. I guess I'll have to subdue my loathing for pay sites while I'm on Sims Wiki. I'll probably do my best to describe the issue of sims pay sites sooner or later, should be an interesting test of character, unless someone beats me to it, I'm not reserving rights here or anything.
 * Just for the sake of discussion (I'm not gonna do any of this, I just think it's interesting discussion): Won't linking to pay sites be abit like linking to pirate sites with the sims on them? The only discernable difference I see is that EA actively enforces their copyright in regards to pirating, but not custom content. Also linking directly to torrents or torrent sites is a no-no, right? How about linking to a google search with the keywords 'sims 3 torrent'. Weird how those two examples would be treated differently. Duskey ( talk )( blog ) 03:21, June 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * The original creator should be attributed just like images. A screenshot of a google search would be more appropriate than a link. --a_morris (talk) 14:31, June 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Original creator of what? Not sure I get what you mean. Duskey ( talk )( blog ) 21:42, June 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Of custom content. --a_morris (talk) 14:20, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Expanding our 5th policy
I'd like to suggest two additions to our 5th policy on blocking:
 * 5b
 * Indefinite/Permanent blocks should only by issued in the most extreme cases. See Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Indefinite blocks.


 * 5c
 * Users affected by indefinite blocks will have their user and talk page blanked (except for the block notice). All user sub-pages (including archives), templates and files not related to The Sims Wiki or in use will be deleted.

My reasoning behind this is that if a user has been permanently blocked, they obviously made a gross violation of policy and are not coming back. Beyond that there is no information to be found in the user's pages or files for anyone. They effectively do not exist on this wiki anymore and it is a waste to keep a memory of them other than their block and reason behind it. Enforcing the deletion of this also prevents users from contacting the blockee, not realizing that they cannot respond due to a permanent block. What are your thoughts? Can we reach a similar outcome by other means? What is the value of keeping old user files? Duskey ( talk ) 11:45, July 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Additionally I'd like to suggest that indefinite blocks be edited to expire on Jan 1, 9999 for easy overview in the block list. Not a policy, just a rule of thumb. Duskey ( talk ) 13:43, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Since there's limited support for this suggestion, there's no need for further discussion. However I notice some user-created competitions started by perma-blocked users. Amy Cotton, specifically. Duskey ( talk ) 10:22, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * How about just blanking their user page and replacing it with a 'This user has been permanently blocked' and then delete their user files and user templates, unless they're in use elsewhere. Duskey ( talk ) 19:49, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Player stories
I would like to make a change to the second sentence of point #2 of the player stories policy.

from:

"A link should be provided, usually in an infobox." to:

"The page should be clearly marked as a player story and a link should be provided from the Sim character's or neighborhood's page, usually in an infobox." --a_morris (talk) 21:03, July 21, 2010 (UTC) Check my reply to the right :) Duskey ( talk ) 13:41, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

IRC Policy
''Immediately below is a proposed policy addition, regarding the IRC channel. This is open for community discussion and approval/denial. -- Patrick (LostInRiverview) (talk)(blog)(random page) 03:46, July 31, 2010 (UTC)''

The Sims Wiki has a dedicated IRC (Internet Relay Chat) Channel that is open to all editors on the Wiki and allows live communication between multiple editors in real-time. By using the channel (Freenode/#The_Sims), you agree to be bound by these policies, and acknowledge that violation of policies can result in being kicked or banned from the channel, with possible corresponding action on The Sims Wiki.

The following rules govern use of the IRC Channel:
 * There is no official topic of the channel; it may be used to discuss the Wiki, discuss The Sims, or simply to build community. However, discussions on the channel must remain appropriate for a general audience.
 * Harassing or attacking other channel users is not allowed.
 * Negative actions by users on the IRC Channel may be addressed by operators on the channel. Negative behavior on the IRC channel may also result in disciplinary action on the Wiki, including warnings, blocks and bans.

Administrators
Administrators from this Wiki are marked by 'voice' status and have a + in front of their name. They are able to kick or ban users who do not follow the policies set above. A kick is a temporary removal from the channel and serves as a warning. A ban can have a limited duration or be indefinite, depending on the severity of the case. The duration of a ban will correspond roughly to the existing policies on blocking users from the Wiki.

If you are an administrator on the Wiki, have registered with the freenode network and wish to obtain voice status, contact Duskey, our IRC channel contact.

Comments

 * What are the consequences of harassing? "Negative actions/behavior" is a bit vague. Are they referring to the actions listed in the previous point? --a_morris (talk) 15:18, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * A response to harassment would be a kick or ban from the channel; if the harrassment doesn't stop or extends onto the Wiki itself, it would be handled through warning, block or ban on the wiki itself. A negative action would refer to harassment, exploitation of other users, attacks against others, extreme profanity or repeated profanity. It's sort of difficult to narrow down a definite definition of what a negative action would be, so I may be missing some things here. -- Patrick (LostInRiverview) (talk)(blog)(random page) 19:47, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * You could make a reference to the Terms of Service. The two points need to be connected with similar terminology so there is a clear cause and effect. --a_morris (talk) 21:40, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Kick = Warning (though you can't 'mark' people on IRC for a week) Ban = Block. Bans on IRC are indefinite by standard, they will have to be manually removed if they need a duration. Which TOS are you referring to a morris? Wikia's? If we should link to a TOS it should be freenode's. I'm also a tad skeptical about carrying over actions from IRC to the Wiki since they're no telling if we have the right person unless they're registered with freenode and logged in. Someone could connect claiming to be a user on the Wiki and then get himself banned from the channel and then hope we'll block the user from the Wiki. If we do include 'carrying over punishments' in the policy it should state that only if we can correctly identify the person. People who are not logged in on IRC are like IP's here on the Wiki. Duskey ( talk ) 23:40, July 31, 2010 (UTC)

Here's a revised IRC Policy proposal:

The Sims Wiki has a dedicated IRC (Internet Relay Chat) Channel that is open to all editors on the Wiki and allows live communication between multiple editors in real-time. By using the channel (Freenode/#The_Sims), you agree to be bound by these policies as well as any applicable IRC or freenode rules or terms of use, and acknowledge that violation of policies can result in being kicked or banned from the channel.

The following rules govern use of the IRC Channel:


 * There is no official topic of the channel; it may be used to discuss the Wiki, discuss The Sims, or simply to build community. However, discussions on the channel must remain appropriate for a general audience.
 * Excessive spamming of the channel, either through inclusion of nonsense or in linking to other websites multiple times even after receiving an administrator warning, will not be tolerated and may result in a kick or a ban, depending on the amount and type of spam.
 * Harassment, exploitation of other users, attacks against other users, extreme profanity or repeated cases of profanity, may be addressed by an administrator on the channel, either through a kick from the channel, or a permanent ban from the channel.

Administrators
Administrators from this Wiki are marked by 'voice' status and have a + in front of their name. They are able to kick or ban users who do not follow the policies set above. A kick is a temporary removal from the channel and serves as a warning. A ban can have a limited duration or be indefinite, depending on the severity of the case. The duration of a ban will correspond roughly to the existing policies on blocking users from the Wiki.

If you are an administrator on the Wiki, have registered with the freenode network and wish to obtain voice status, contact Duskey, our IRC channel contact.

I'll leave this open to comment. By the way, where does this go after a comment period is over? Is it voted on? -- Patrick (LostInRiverview) (talk)(blog)(random page) 05:54, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I really like this version. Thumbs up from me. We should add a notice somewhere saying something like: "The freenode IRC network is not affiliated with Wikia or the general term Wiki and no Wiki policies apply." Just so people don't cite some obscure Wikipedia guideline. I don't think it's a vote, if a few of the active admins (or the admins who bother to check this out from time to time) can agree upon it, it's basically in effect. It should be placed in The Sims Wiki:Policy & The Sims Wiki:IRC Channel. Duskey ( talk ) 12:15, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Moved onto the main policy page as a proposed policy: The Sims Wiki:Policy.

5 pillars
The discussion has been moved to its own page. Duskey ( talk ) 12:25, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Unless anyone has any crazy objections, I see no harm in implementing the 5 pillars soon. Duskey ( talk ) 22:50, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Bots
Following up on this incident perhaps we should adopt a policy regarding bots. Here is my suggestion: Duskey ( talk ) 10:19, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I like it; my only issues are purely cosmetic. I think the ALL CAPS should be dropped (since it's already bolded). Also, 'aswell' should be spelled 'as well'. -- Patrick (LostInRiverview) (talk)(blog)(random page) 17:42, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Missing a word. I assume this is what you meant. "If you want to test your bot, please use your userpages or the sandbox." --a_morris (talk) 20:58, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I fixed your reported typo's. I take it you approve of the policy since you didn't mention that :p Duskey ( talk ) 21:56, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Clear, concise. Is it really necessary as a policy? It seems to be a reiteration of Wikia's already existing guidelines regarding bots. Perhaps a notice would be enough? --a_morris (talk) 17:26, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I suppose it's not needed as a policy. I just want a place to point to when I block someone's bot for doing damage. Help:Bots will do. Duskey ( talk ) 20:14, August 11, 2010 (UTC)